the anc was a terrorist organization at one point. he has since said great things about nelson mandela. i like that what's been said about nelson mandela is said in the same way the pope said what he did. forgiveness and redemption. the pope's widely misinterpreted. and mischaracterized statements. it's active engagement. taking care of each other with solidarity and subsidiary. >> when you say about accusing darth vader, so to speak. this is not just about rhetoric. this is the policy that prevented the anc -- when they had the feet on the neck of nelson mandela -- >> he said, let's forgive. let's forgive dick cheney. let's forgive these people. i think one of the fascinating things about nelson mandela, he wasn't a saint. he made a lot of mistakes. he readily admitted it. he said, i'm not a saint unless you think a saint is a sinner who gets up and tries again every time. he changed an entire country and a world in what he said. done through acts of humility. like the pope has done. authentic acts of humility. >> i think -- one of t